Response from David Langford about Paying Students to Learn

On December 11, 2008 I posted an article written by David Langford about paying students to learn.

An anonymous person commented that there is research that says there are positive effects of incentive based programs. I forwarded that response to David and asked him if he was interested in responded. He sent me the following:

Thanks for passing along my article to those who might listen. Unfortunately we are fighting a losing battle with extrinsic manipulation. It is so easy to implement these programs it is hard to stop politians and administrators. The new pick for Education Secretary Arne Duncan is also an advocate of pay-for-grades and implemented such a program in Chicago. I am fearful we may see an escalation of this thinking during the Obama administration.

I read through each of the studies the person who responded offered. None were credible comparisons of the blatant manipulation offered in the Chicago Public Schools or in Washington D.C.

Offering girls in Kenya scholarships to continue to go to school if they work hard does not compare to throwing money at kids who get A's, in a fabricated rating system, when they are already guarenteed a free education: Apples and Oranges comparisons. The study from Texas cited on paying students to take AP courses I believe lacks credibility since in order to get the predicted results they wanted they changed systemic factors such as opening AP courses to anyone interested instead of doing what they had always done by limiting class size to class rank. This is only one of a multitude of problems in this study.

The real problem is not how to make a better buggy whip, but should we be making them to begin with. I know I could produce the same positive correlation to improved work by beating children if they do not work hard. But, should we adopt that as a program and then start improving it? Automating or improving a bad process just means you can do something very bad quickly and to a larger number of people. Maybe Harvard would like to promote that study since they seem to be the source of promoting these pay-for-performance programs. I like the line in the movie Jurassic park that goes something like this, "You were so busy trying to see if you could you forgot to think about if you should!"

All of these types of programs and studies take time away from studying and fixing the real problems. No child will say I don't work hard at school because they do not pay me enough, but they will say it's boring or my teacher dosn't care. Who will work on these problems? Let's work on the real problems preventing high quality work and effort instead manufacturing new problems.

I'm interested in hearing from others about this very important topic.

More about NY paying students

Here's another article about NY paying students for doing well on tests and not missing school:

Schools Plan to Pay Cash for Marks
By JENNIFER MEDINA • Published: June 19, 2007
New York City students could earn as much as $500 a year for doing well on standardized tests and showing up for class in a new program to begin this fall, city officials announced yesterday. And the Harvard economist who created the program is joining the inner circle of Schools Chancellor Joel I. Klein, according to an official briefed on the hiring.

More Extrinsic Motivation

Here's another example of paying young people to motivate them...

NY is thinking about paying young people to do well on standardized tests.

New York may pay students for high test scores
A Harvard economist has captured the interest of New York City's mayor with a plan to give students $5 to $50 for high standardized test scores as a way to change behavior and reduce poverty, although a similar plan was dismissed as laughable by some education officials a few years ago. The New York Times (6/9), New York Daily News (6/9)

And here's the other side of the story - 1000s of young people cheating on high stakes tests in Texas.

Analysis shows TAKS cheating rampant
State says it's addressed the problem, but News uncovers more than 50,000 cases
05:29 PM CDT on Sunday, June 3, 2007 • By JOSHUA BENTON and HOLLY K. HACKER / The Dallas Morning News jbenton@dallasnews.com; hhacker@dallasnews.com
First of three parts

Tens of thousands of students cheat on the TAKS test every year, including thousands on the high-stakes graduation test, according to an in-depth data analysis by The Dallas Morning News.

This is two sides of the same coin. Unless WE (the infamous we) start thinking differently about this it is only going to get worse.

Unschooling

It's an interesting name for something so simple - letting a young person's interests drive their learning. But that's what the movement is being called. Unschooling, to some degree, is simply an extension of homeschooling. The difference is that the young person is 'driving' the learning by what they find interesting or want to know more about.

The name, first used in 1970 by someone called John Holt, but in a recent article in Teacher Magazine it says the movement is growing. There are no hard numbers on how many young people are being unschooled but there are an estimated 1.1million young people being home schooled.

The worry expressed by educators is that young people will lose their way. I wonder. It's probably true that some people using this approach may lack some content knowledge but isn't curiosity and a desire to learn (and the ability to learn) more important?

Here's a link to Unschooling - a web site with resources for and about unschooling.

Here's Google's results when searching for unschooling.

This one just might work!

Here's another external motivator for high school students - finish early (complete all your courses) by mid-term and you receive a $1500 scholarship. Now I can imagine a lot of young people will buy into this idea. Lawmakers say they will allow students to continue to participate in sports even if they graduate early.

Arizona lawmakers offer $1,500 to seniors who finish early
Arizona lawmakers this week signed off on giving $1,500 scholarships to students who complete necessary high school course work by the middle of their senior year. Lawmakers hope the measure will encourage high school students to buckle down; schools will continue to receive student funding for the whole year less the $1,500 advanced to the student. Arizona Daily Star (Tucson)/Capitol Media Services (5/3)

I think this is interesting for a lot of reasons. We know that school is based on the principle of 'seat time' - the amount of time a young person is in their seat - and on the principle of ticking off subjects from a list. Does learning matter? I still don't see anything that tells me that these young people learn anything that will help them to be successful in their life after they leave school. So this incentive motivates young people to get 'out of school' and into the rest of their lives - without any clear knowledge they have what they need in order to be successful in that life.

That's Right, Do More of the Same

In a recent post I expressed some concern about the ideology being employed in public education. I would suggest that most educators involved in public education feel they are doing the 'right thing' every day. In most public schools that means preparing young people to take tests - NOT to succeed in an ever changing, technological world.

In some areas of the country the idea of lengthening the school day has been proposed as a way to help 'failing' schools. The idea being proposed is to give these schools more time to prepare young people for the tests they must take - and teach subjects that have been dropped from the curriculum (like art, music and drama).

It seems to me that the issue isn't how long the day is but what is being done during the day that matters. If educators don't change what they are doing - how they teach - then just giving them more time isn't going to solve much. In fact, it will probably just make matters worse.

Here's an article that articulates this 'solution' in the New York Times:

Failing Schools See a Solution in Longer Day
by DIANA JEAN SCHEMO
Published: March 26, 2007
FALL RIVER, Mass. — States and school districts nationwide are moving to lengthen the day at struggling schools, spurred by grim test results suggesting that more than 10,000 schools are likely to be declared failing under federal law next year.

In some places, like New Mexico, the extra time is being used to 'tutor' young people in the subjects they are struggling with.

I'm not sure I really understand why teachers don't see that teaching is an equal part in the equation of learning. Why is it just the learner that is the 'problem?'

Another External Motivator

Here's another tact the State of Maryland is taking to get young people to stay in school. They have decided to withhold the ability to get a drivers license if a student misses more than 10 days of school.

Truant Maryland students could be denied driver's license
Maryland lawmakers approved a bill that would deny driver's licenses to students with 10 or more unexcused absences. Under the bill, each student would have to present an attendance record to the state to get a permit, but students who already have a license would not be at risk of losing it. The Washington Post (3/16)

The sponsor of the bill that passed in the House of Delegates said, "This does give us a tool to use to combat truancy," said Del. Gerron S. Levi (D), the bill's House sponsor.

Why not give them a reason to go to school rather then a reason to avoid something else?

OK, so let's see, I have to go to school so I can get my drivers license, but if I come to school I might win an iPod, and, if I pass a certain exam I can make $250, and if I graduate I could possibly win a car. Hmmm. Why do I need to learn anything? I'll just sit through this whole boring mess and get the money and the perks!

Another External Motivator

Here's another tact the State of Maryland is taking to get young people to stay in school. They have decided to withhold the ability to get a drivers license if a student misses more than 10 days of school.

Truant Maryland students could be denied driver's license
Maryland lawmakers approved a bill that would deny driver's licenses to students with 10 or more unexcused absences. Under the bill, each student would have to present an attendance record to the state to get a permit, but students who already have a license would not be at risk of losing it. The Washington Post (3/16)

The sponsor of the bill that passed in the House of Delegates said, "This does give us a tool to use to combat truancy," said Del. Gerron S. Levi (D), the bill's House sponsor.

Why not give them a reason to go to school rather then a reason to avoid something else?

OK, so let's see, I have to go to school so I can get my drivers license, but if I come to school I might win an iPod, and, if I get an A in certain classes I might make $450, and if I graduate I could possibly win a car. Hmmm. Why do I need to learn anything? I'll just sit through this whole boring mess and get the money and the perks!

The Beginning of the End

Well, not really. The beginning of the end already started - but this is more of the kind of thing that will ultimately end in the ruin of Public Schooling. Can you imagine if incentives - paying students to go to school, paying them to get good grades, paying them to pass tests, paying them to graduate, etc. - continues?

I've already written about teacher incentives and charging parents if their children don't come to school or if they miss a parent teacher meeting.

I've also written about the different incentives being used on young people: enticing them with iPods, breakfast, paying third graders and paying $5 per A, $4 per B, etc. and offering the enticement of a car for graduating.

Here's another article along these lines:

A $250 incentive for passing an AP exam
A group of educators and business executives will offer some D.C.-area Advanced Placement students and teachers $250 for each passing score on science, English and math tests. In Dallas, where a similar program launched more than a decade ago, the number of passing AP scores in 10 targeted high schools increased from 71 in 1995 to 877 in 2006. The Washington Post (3/9)

The reason I was saying this is the beginning of the end is because if this continues and one school finds out about some incentive another school has; or schools in one state find out about something going on in another state; the only logical outcome of all this is an escalation of this kind of thinking with the need for greater and greater rewards being offered.

This is NOT SUSTAINABLE!

Bush Creates Teacher Incentive

So here's more along the same lines. President Bush (or someone on his staff) wants to create more money for teacher incentives (merit pay) for teachers that improve student achievement. How come student achievement is measured by scores on standardized tests and not on whether a young person can survive and thrive in the world?

Bush wants more money for merit pay
The Bush administration wants $199 million to put in its year-old Teacher Incentive Fund, a system that would extend merit pay to teachers who improve student achievement in low-income schools. Last year, the government awarded 16 grants totaling $40 million. The Washington Times (2/11)

More Extrinsic Motivation

In the few posts I've made about the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation I completely forgot that the public education system is a mandatory and forced education system. Back in the late 1800's young people were forced to go to public school by gun point. So today, since we can't force people to go to school by gun point we have to find other ways to do it.

So here's a school district that wants to charge parents money every day their child misses school.

Scotts Valley parents asked to pay $36.13 if their kid skips school
By Matt King MediaNews
SCOTTS VALLEY - Parents whose kids take a day off from school will be asked to open their wallets. That will be $36.13, please.

Paying Students, Fining Parents

So here's another example of theory in use in public education. On the one hand, we're creating high stakes testing for young people at an early age and continuing that through their lives - punishing young people with greater and greater punishments. On the other hand there are school districts and schools that are resorting to creating incentives and paying young people to attend or to get good grades - with greater and greater extrinsic motivators. And now, a bill has been introduced in the Texas legislature that would fine parents $500 if they miss meetings with their children's teacher.

Bill proposes fining parents who miss teacher meetings
A bill introduced in the Texas Legislature would impose a $500 fine on parents who miss conferences with their child's teachers. The representative who filed the bill said it was designed to encourage parents to be more involved with their child's education. CNN/Associated Press (2/1)

I've written in a previous post about how the education system is based on a model of compliance. One of the results of a compliance type environment is these acts of desperation - to force compliance where voluntary compliance isn't taking place.

Instead we should be spending our resources creating a system that instills intrinsic motivation and enthusiasm for learning with voluntary participation from everyone involved - young people and parents and teachers and community members.

Here's another example of the desperate attempts to get young people to come to school or keep them from skipping school:

Truancy attacked with iPods, food
Schools throughout the nation are enticing students with everything from breakfast to iPods to keep them in school. Attacks on truancy help boost academic performance, administrators say.

Extrinsic vs Intrinsic Motivation II

Many years ago I attended a workshop on continual improvement in education. In that workshop, David Langford made a poignant point when he asked us to consider the trajectory the current educational model is on when it comes to making mistakes, getting the wrong answer, discipline, etc. He suggested the only likely end point is killing people (literally).

If we make a similar extrapolation about the prevailing education system and how many educators use competition and external rewards as motivators it would make sense that educators would at some point pay people to not only attend school but also pay them for doing well on tests.

Both of these things are happening now. Here's the latest:

Ohio District Tests Performance Pay—for Students
Geralyn Raach, a teacher at Central Elementary School, has a favorite slogan for motivating her 3rd graders to put in their best effort, but it’s not what you would expect. Borrowing a line from the movie “Jerry Maguire,”the veteran teacher likes to call out, “Show me the money!”

And here is an older article on parents paying their children for grades:

Parents Offer Kids Pay for Good Grades
Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:13 AM EDT
Ben Feller, AP Education Writer

WASHINGTON — Sure, learning is its own reward. But some kids respond best to cash. Andrew Waller's grades soared when his parents started offering $5 for A's and $4 for B's. Now he pockets about $25 each report card, saving it for video games and summer camp.

As I read through this post I realized that there are some people that might feel this is a good idea - motivating young people to 'stay in school' or 'do good in school.' Isn't it obvious that schools in themselves are creating the need for this kind of behavior (on the part of the school districts, on the part of the parents, and on the part of the young people)?

If schools were designed as places of learning, where there was discovery and intrigue and mystery and curiosity - and god forbid, fun - young people would be naturally motivated not only to go there but on their own accord to continue to want more!